Why Great Teams Make Leadership "Cool" | Dave Clawson

In our Season 2 finale, Dave Clawson, the former head football coach at Wake Forest, shares why leadership and character must become part of a team’s identity long before they’re needed. He explains why great programs intentionally celebrate the behaviors they want repeated and why making leadership “cool” creates teams that stay connected when pressure rises.

In this episode, we discuss:

• Why leadership and character should be celebrated
• What actually holds teams together under pressure
• Building culture before adversity arrives
• Reinforcing the behaviors you want repeated
• Why winning starts long before game day

🎧 This conversation originally took place inside Momentum Sessions, a free community where coaches learn from some of the world’s best leaders in sport.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:02

It's only leadership if somebody's following. So if you are leading by example, who is following? You just don't do things right, and all of a sudden a group follows. It has to be intentional, it has to be well intended, and it has to be strategic.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

Coach Claussen, I really appreciate you taking the time. You built one of the most respected programs in the ACC at Wake Forest, often competing against teams with far more resources, and you're the only coach to have uh 10 game-winning seasons at four different Division I football programs. You said that you had to change the race to compete. What does that actually mean?

SPEAKER_01 0:45

You know, through my career, I really believed you could win anywhere, um, but every school had to have a different formula of how you were going to win. And when we came to Wake Forest, you know, we were in a conference with Florida State, who had just come off a national championship. Uh, Clemson, who was about to win a couple of national championships. You know, at that point, Louisville, NC State were all highly ranked, very competitive programs. And I figured out pretty quickly that we weren't going to beat them on too many recruits. Um, we just were not a place that got four and five stars. Um, Wake Forest is a a small, smallest enrollment of any Power Force school. Um, we had a nice stadium, but it was smaller. Football facilities weren't great. And so we really had to dig into more what the school was about. And so I thought our advantages were that Wake Forest was very academic, very prestigious, the smallest enrollment of a power four school, but we also had, you know, maybe the best student-teacher ratio. So our players got more individual attention here than any other school in the country for the power four in terms of the academic, the class size. So if we could start leveraging those things as strengths, um, I thought that would give us the best chance to win. So we really had a formula of are they good enough that we can win in the ACC with them? Are they committed to graduating um and do they love football? And so we took guys that maybe had deficiencies, but the deficiencies were a matter of maturation. So, like we took Jesse Bates, who was a 170-pound safety from uh Indiana. Uh, we took Kenneth Walker, who just won the Super Bowl MVP, who was an under-recruited running back at Memphis. We took Zach Tom, who's now the starting right tackle for the Green Bay Packers. And these guys uh they they weren't deficient in terms of athleticism. Um they were just underdeveloped, they were younger. And a lot of our formula was you know, we were gonna take if a player couldn't play right away from uh for us, that wasn't gonna deter us from taking them. We said, you know, if they're recruiting five-star 18-year-olds, could I take a two or a three-star 18-year-old? And if we redshirted them a year later, we were gonna run a longer race. And so the goal was that we were gonna redshirt 84 to 86 percent of our players. We had the highest redshirt ratio of anywhere in the country. We were gonna get that extra year of development, and by the time these guys had matured and played, they would be just as good as the five-star kids that we were playing against. But the only way that that would work is if we recruited players who valued what we were academically that were willing to stay at Wake Forest because they valued the degree. And our first two years we struggled. We were three and nine, three and nine, but we redshirted almost the whole class. And once those group of players started maturing, started developing, we went on a seven-year run that we went to seven straight bowl games. We are ranked top ten in the country at some point in 21 and 22. We won the ACC Atlantic. And we had one of the top three or four programs in the ACC over that seven-year period. Um, Clemson was one, and it was always us, NC State and Pitt, that were two, three, and four.

SPEAKER_00 4:36

And a lot of what you just said could probably fit into this next question that I'm gonna ask. But was there something you intentionally did differently? If you can just point to one thing that people maybe thought at the time was totally unconventional or weird, but really ended up working.

SPEAKER_01 4:50

Well, we were very upfront, especially with the linemen, that we were gonna redshirt them. We believe you can be a high-level power four player. We think you can be a high-level Division I player. Um, but your first year, we're gonna put on weight, we're gonna put on strength, you're gonna work really hard, you're gonna be on the scout team. And we were very transparent with our plans for most of our players, um, especially the linemen. Now, a skilled guide like Kenneth Walker was able to come in here and play right away. But even Jesse Bates, who arguably is one of the top three or four safeties in the NFL right now, we redshirted him. I don't know if that's unique, but we were we weren't going into homes telling guys they were gonna start as freshmen to get them.

SPEAKER_00 5:33

I wanted to get into that part around the communication of that. Because I know coaches that being a truth teller can be challenging at times. Um, how do you handle those discussions? Because you obviously are recruiting, you want them to be excited about coming, but maybe they're not gonna be excited about sitting for a year.

SPEAKER_01 5:50

Well, we told every player if you're freshman year, you're gonna be a difference of whether we win and lose football games and you're gonna make a significant impact. And we would use the the measuring stick of they're gonna play more than 25 to 30 plays a game, we're gonna play them. We are not gonna have you lose a year of your eligibility running down on kickoff three times a game. And so what we would do is we would meet with every freshman 10 days before the first game, and we would give them one of three messages that you're playing right now that you've earned a role, that you're gonna play 25 to 30 snaps a game. And we just had to make the commitment that they we actually did that. We couldn't tell a player that and not follow up on it. Some players we said you're red alert that we're gonna try to redshirt you, but you're one season-ending injury away from playing, you know, 25 to 30 plays a game. And then other guys, and mostly the O linemen and D linemen, we would say that you're redshirt, you're far part of the developmental group. And what we did that was unique is you know, we would take every Sunday and we would just practice the redshirt guys for 20 minutes, a half an hour on their own during camp. You know, we would have a separate practice with those guys at the end and make sure that we are investing time, reps, coaching into those guys. And those guys would also get an extra lift. And then on Fridays, we would have the coaches evaluate what we called rookie ball with them so that those guys were getting coached, getting developed. We were investing time into them with the goal of getting them ready to compete their first spring. And we devoted time to that during the season. So during the season, there's a lot of pressure to win in game plan, but we always took a long-term perspective of if we were going to be a consistent program, we had to be developmental in nature. Just because we weren't going to recruit, we we couldn't get the four and five-star players to come here. You know, we just did not have enough of the go fasters, the history, the facilities, uh, the resources that we just didn't get those guys. And so to spend time uh trying to recruit those players, um, unless there was a wake for us fit, you know, they're close by, their dad went to wake for us, or their parents went to wake, or they grew up being a Demon Deacon fan. You know, we got a few four and five-star kids for unique circumstances, but our bread and butter were going to be guys that were smart, very motivated, academic, that valued what we were.

SPEAKER_00 8:28

And in terms of culture, a lot of coaches talk about culture and but it may just stay kind of as great-looking words on a wall. What did you actually reinforce week to week that actually made your culture really real and stick?

SPEAKER_01 8:41

Well, part of it is we had a leadership group, and I would always have them define the culture of our program. Like, and so every year that group would come up with a mission statement, and then from that mission statement, we would have a team contract of this is what this team is gonna be about. And so the the players elected this group. The group then came up with a mission statement, and they would present it to the players, and then they would sign a contract that this is what this team is gonna be about. We're gonna be highly committed, we're gonna be extremely competitive, we're gonna hold each other to a high standard. Um, and so this leadership uh group that I had, I made sure that it always had people from all classes. So we always had representation, freshmen, sophomores, juniors, seniors, and we had representation from every position group. So there was not one guy in the team that could say there's nobody in there representing us or representing me. And so what you try to do is empower your players, you know, because football, we had 130 players. So you're trying to empower a leadership group to not just maintain um, but to determine what the standards were. And then when players didn't live up to those standards, those are the standards that they came up with. You know, we we tried to make it as much player-driven as we could. And I think one of the reasons that we were good and so successful and so consistent is we had a great, great string of leaders and captains that went through our program. And we trained those guys from their freshman year of how to make hard decisions, how to confront people, um, how to, you know, when you at times confront people, you're not doing it to them, you're doing it for them, and and teaching them how to engage in difficult conversations with players that were underachieving and and not living up to the standards of the program. And we you can get a group to do that, the coaching becomes a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_00 10:48

Two quick follow-ups to that. Did you and your coaching staff stay out of that process completely? And the second one is did do your values then because players are changing, do your values.

SPEAKER_01 10:58

No, I mean, there's certain to me, our value system had to be set by me and our staff.

unknown 11:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:04

So we had a value system that was non-negotiable. These are gonna be the values of our program. And then you have certain rules and standards that are non-negotiable, and and a lot of those are the obvious. You know, you're gonna go to class, um, we're not gonna do drugs, we're not gonna be out on a Friday night before a game, you know, but then you you put it on the players that encapsulate these values and these non-negotiables into their own words, and then you have them take ownership for it. And it it really was a a lesson in leadership. And a lot of these players that played for me back then, I just went to a wedding last weekend, and there were 16 of them there or 15 of them, and you know, they're now running companies and running businesses, or some of them are in the NFL. And like to me, some of those leadership qualities and characteristic are universal, whether it's football, basketball, field hockey, or running a multimillion dollar business. And um, you know, a lot of those guys forget what play we called fourth and one, but they remember a lot of these leadership lessons that we taught them. And again, we wanted to add value to their lives that would carry beyond football. So to me, it was very important that they had a great football experience, uh, that they got a meaningful degree, and they were able to carry some of those life skills on past the football field, past their time at Wake Forest.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

If you were coaching a high school team today, what are maybe a two to three behaviors that you would want to track or reinforce each week?

SPEAKER_01 12:44

Well, I just think a lot of it is you always want to empower your players, but they need to be taught how to do that. I think one thing of this generation, and whether it's again social media, peer pressure, what have it be, but you know, this generation is is less likely to hold their teammates and their friends accountable. You know, it's I got your back, we're all good, my bad. You know, and there's certain behaviors and habits that are detrimental and destructive to a team. And if a teammate isn't willing to call those things out, those behaviors can take over your program. And so I think it's a matter of identifying leaders early. Uh, to me, it's always a matter of rewarding the achievers, making achievement cool, uh, making strength gains cool, making achievement in the classroom cool. Uh, that, you know, behind every successful football program or any sports team, you know, is a group of achievers, a group of highly motivated people that are pushing the team and pushing the group in a way that maybe every individual wouldn't do get there by themselves. And if you have those young people teaching them, empowering them, and showing them how to do that can be a positive force. And my thing was that, you know, we had really good kids, we had smart people, but you know, leadership is a skill that needs to be learned. You know, to me, you know, there is some amount of personality and charisma involved, but I think a lot of leadership traits can be learned, trained, developed. And it just struck me in the first 15, 20 years of my career is every time a team would have a great season, the coach would say, Well, we had great leadership. And anytime they struggled, you know, well, we just didn't have good leadership. Well, if leadership is that important, let's not leave it to chance. Let's do everything we can do program-wise to do the best job we can to ensure that we've always maximized the leadership potential of the group the same way we maximize their strength levels, their speed levels, their football acumen, uh, their strategic knowledge, their technical knowledge. To me, all these things help elevate a football team or any sports team.

SPEAKER_00 15:07

Do you have any truly actionable things a coach could take away to build leaders within their program and not leave it to chance?

SPEAKER_01 15:14

Yeah, I think one of the things that we did, so we would meet with our players. I would meet with every player in our team once a year. The position coaches would do it twice a year. But part of the evaluation was give me three examples of why you're a good teammate and a great leader of this team. And the players knew that that was part of their evaluation. And so they had to be very uh conscious and aware that we wanted that to be one of our program values, that if you're on this team, you're a great teammate, and you're doing something in a proactive way to be a good leader. And the whole idea of what mentor leadership is, that's just helping, you know, it starts at a very basic level of helping one teammate. You know, whether it's work through a problem or accomplish something physically or teach them something schematically. But I wanted that to be part of the mentality of our players that they were constantly looking for little opportunities to lead. And so, you know, we evaluated their performance, we evaluated their uh improvement in the weight room, we evaluated their flexibility, their speed. But part of their evaluation was how effectively are you a leader? And I never ever wanted to hear the words that they were leading by example. You know, all leading by example meant that you were doing things right for yourself. It's only leadership if somebody's following. So if you are leading by example, who is following? And that leadership has to be a very proactive thing. You just don't do things right, and all of a sudden a group follows. Uh, it has to be intentional, it has to be well intended, and it has to be strategic. And so that was something we constantly evaluated in our program. And uh again, we rewarded achievers and leaders and performers that we wanted to make leadership cool. And I would constantly bring in ex-players of how these leadership skills had helped them develop and have success later in life, that this was going to be a transferable skill that just wasn't gonna help our football team, but was gonna help their career trajectory as they went through life.

SPEAKER_00 17:33

And then when you saw someone leading others, was there a way that you had to either reinforce that or celebrate that this person is kind of embodying what we we want in this program?

SPEAKER_01 17:44

Yeah, and that's where you have to know your players. I mean, some guys were leaders and they wanted to be recognized for it. And other guys you would whisper to them or pat them in the back privately, say, hey, I really appreciate the way you handled that. That's the leadership we're looking for. And I think with all of your players, investing time in them, getting to know them, understanding what their currency is, you know, some people want public recognition, some people want a quiet pat on the back. Um, is that I wanted to make sure I was reinforcing the behavior in a positive way that would, you know, encourage them to keep acting in that way. Um, but I certainly would do it in a way that other people would recognize that it was something that I valued that was important to me. And even when we got to the NIL era, you certainly would would base what you would pay players um on performance. But the players that led and had strong and tangible qualities and were what I called glue guys that brought our team together, you know, I made sure that that was reflected in what they were getting paid, that there was a a real value in that, that if you do things right and you lead, um, you not only are you making our team better, it's going to make your own personal situation better.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

And your first two years at Wake Forest were three and nine. Most programs might lose their culture or it might drift in that little stretch. What did you do though, so that yours did not drift away?

SPEAKER_01 19:16

We recruited the the right kids that were high character, and we were constantly presenting a vision of what we were working towards. This is where we are, this is where we're going, and it's not a linear, you know, there's a lot of up and down. Um, but I probably on the Sundays during those three and nine years was more positive in film meetings than I was the year we won 11 games. I was constantly pointing out effort plays and execution plays of evidence that we're getting there. We're not as consistent as we need to be, but this is winning football. This is winning effort. Um the results are where where we want them, but these habits are going to lead to those results.

SPEAKER_00 20:05

Were there specific habits or rituals that helped most during those tough stretches that kind of kept the culture going and just kept keeping the momentum of you know positive?

SPEAKER_01 20:16

Well, I just think it was being consistent that Sunday always win or loss pointing out the three or four greatest effort plays, but also at times pointing out the one or two plays that weren't acceptable effort, and the reason we weren't winning. And so you you wanted to create some amount of peer pressure that the teammates didn't want to leave each other down. I always would tell our players that uh you know, successful people have routines. And football is a very routine-oriented game of this is what we do Sundays, this is what we do Mondays, this is what we do Tuesdays, and it's the discipline to stick to a routine of whether you won the last game by 40 or lost the last game by 40 that produces consistent results. You're three and nine, um, and you're the head coach, there's a lot of sleepless nights, there's certainly some self-doubt, but when you get in front of that team on Sunday, you need to be consistent, you need to be the same person every Sunday, regardless of the result, and you got to show the path forward and why there's hope. And that's really what coaches are when you take over programs, you know, that you're messengers of hope. And it can't be phony, it can't be fake. Well, and I would point out real examples of why how we were making progress. And if we continue to do things like that, it would get better. Now, eventually you gotta turn the corner, and unfortunately, we did my third year, and then after that, um, again, we had a a really good seven year run here.

SPEAKER_00 21:54

Are there any early signs that you can consistently see the a team's culture maybe is kind of breaking? Even if a coach maybe doesn't quite realize it just yet? That it's breaking through? Breaking negatively.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

Oh yeah, going the other way. I I always think that every job I inherited, you know, I kind of said there's a 27-10 principle. You know, 20% of the players, I couldn't screw those guys up if I tried. They were raised right, they have great work ethics, they're motivated, they're smart, um, they're driven, they're achievers. There's 10% of the team that I don't care what we did for them or how we did it, they were going to be contrary. Those are the eye rollers, the palms up guys, the shake the head guys. And to me, the battle every year was the battle for that 70%. When I saw the majority of the team start gravitating towards the achievers, I knew we were heading in a good direction. When I would start seeing people gravitate uh to the underachievers, to the cancer, you know, that's when as a coach that I had to become much more involved and much more proactive and much more demanding and maintaining a standard uh that it wasn't okay to be that way. Um and it at times, you know, you gotta make hard decisions with players and even with staff members to let people know that that that is not okay, that that won't be tolerated. And you know, if and again, it could never be personal. You had to have real reasons to do it. Um, but we had standards and we allowed those guys in some ways to eliminate themselves.

SPEAKER_00 23:40

In terms of the accountability piece, how did you hold players accountable in a way that kind of builds them instead of Well, we you know, we we did things like we class checked.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

So we had a standard that if you're gonna come to Wake Forest, you're gonna go to every single class. And if you didn't go to class, there was a consequence. You know, we did what we called deacon time. Everything we did as a team started 10 minutes early. And if you weren't 10 minutes early, there was a consequence. Um, you know, in terms of going to the weight room, there's a certain way you're gonna dress. There's a certain pair of shoes you're gonna wear, there's a certain, you know, I I just really believe that when you create accountability off the field, it leads to accountability on the field. You know, and if I couldn't count on a player going to his one o'clock business class, I couldn't count for him to perform when the pressure was on in the four on fourth down in the fourth quarter. And um, you know, so that was just again, and and you run different programs, different ways at different places, but that was the nature of Wake Forest is that we were highly academic, uh, we had great students here. Um, it's a first class, uh, high standard place. And I wanted to build a football program that fit the school. And we told players this is how it's gonna be. If you come to Wake Forest, you're gonna go to class. If you come to Wake Forest, you're gonna be on time. And, you know, maybe players didn't commit here because of that. And some of those guys were good guys, but I always said that if we lost a great player who didn't have great character, you know, he may beat us once a year when we play him. But if he's in your program, he beats you the other 364 days.

SPEAKER_00 25:27

This has been awesome, Coach. And I would love if anyone's got a question, they can raise their virtual hand. They can also type it in the chat there. We'd love to get a to a couple of quick ones from coaches attending. But um, your retirement, Coach Claussen, came amid you know major changes in college sports. How do you see these trends maybe affecting high school programs downstream? And what advice do you have for coaches on this call about this really changing landscape?

SPEAKER_01 25:54

Well, I would say to the high school coaches that you're our last hope. The one thing good about football is it's really the last sport that's still as scholastic at your level. I mean, just the job that high school football coaches do is incredible. So we had so many well-coached, well-disciplined, but they're still at an age that they're very impressionable, but they have challenges too, just like the way there's a transfer portal in college.

unknown 26:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

You know, now there's players that play at four or five different high schools. And there's always that balance of having high standards and accountability, but making sure that players understand that these are things you're doing for them, not to them, you know, because of how lax the high school transfer rules are now. Um, you know, and at that age bracket, 14, 15, 16, 17 years old, you know, these kids are are very young, very impressionable, you know, but they need strong leaders. They need to know that there are standards and there's a reward for doing things right and being accountable, and there's a consequence for not doing those things. And the ones that are able to make those hard decisions at the high school level, those are the kids that we want to coach in college. Because they understand the value of teamwork, they understand how to respect the chain of command, they know how to be a good teammate. And it was really quick to see when we had a player from a well-coached, disciplined high school program, and you know, when we had a player that was allowed to get away with a lot of things because he was the most talented. So again, you don't treat everybody the same, but you treat everybody fairly. But there's got to be, I think, some standards uh that are absolute and a value system in every program that everyone's held accountable to.

SPEAKER_00 27:49

And if we dig just a little bit deeper in that 36 years in coaching, do you have another or like a really specific, hard, hard-earned lesson that you would give to a high school coach that's you know also juggling multiple roles from teaching, they got their own family, and they're also trying to have a successful sports program?

SPEAKER_01 28:08

When I got my first head job, I uh I didn't do great. You know, I became a head coach at 31 years old at Fordham. And, you know, my first year, we were 0-11. And so all these things that I wanted to teach our players, I did not possess those skills. You know, I could design an offense and call plays, but I was not a very good leader myself. And I learned the hard way how important that skill is, how important it is to be consistent, um, how important it is at times to make hard decisions that may hurt you in the short term but make you better in the long term. I'm trying to teach that to college-age players, and yet I did not possess those same skills myself when I was in my early 30s, which is why I think I value those trades so much. You know, I would have a lot of high school coaches come visit our program, and uh, and I would try to get leadership lessons from them. Because quite frankly, at that point in my career, they were much better leading their programs than I was leading mine. So, you know, you can learn something from everybody. And uh again, just a lot of respect for what high school coaches do. And I think what they do to develop young people has never been more critical because in college now it's much more transactional. You know, you have players at four schools in four years and leaving for an extra $10,000 or $15,000, those values of teamwork and accountability and reliant on your teammate and all those things. I think high school coaches right now are our last best hope to instill those values.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

And how is your latest uh role with Wake Forest? It looks like they they left you a cool office, so you still got that going. What's the the new role like? So I work in the business school.

SPEAKER_01 29:59

I I teach uh leadership and character in our business school. And then I also work for the uh ACC network, which is part of ESPN, and I did some studio work, so I still get to watch a lot of football and study film and study teams and visit a lot of places. Um, but it's been really fun being in the business school, and you you realize how many of these skills that we teach in sports uh are transferable to the business world. You know, if you you hear a successful CEO talk, um, at times you think you're listening to a coach, that uh these skills are not sports specific, you know, these are transferable life skills that will forever benefit uh the young people that you coach and mentor.

SPEAKER_00 30:48

And as we wrap up here, if a high school coach you know listening live right now or on the replay could implement maybe just one thing in this next season, um, what would you want it to be?

SPEAKER_01 31:02

Well, again, we we all have to install our offenses, our defenses, our strategic plans. We all have you know strength programs and speed programs. But just to spend, you know, 15 minutes to a half an hour every week of character development, leadership training, I think those things will keep your football team together when times get tough and help bond a team that can make it through a season, right? We've all been through good seasons that the job is fun, and we've all been through challenging seasons that the last two or three weeks gets really challenging. And I and I think the more you invest in the front end of character development, teaching them what it is to be a great teammate, um, teaching leadership skills, you know, when you have those challenging years, I think it makes the finish of those seasons a lot more enjoyable and a lot more beneficial if you put the work in in the offseason in the front end, um, that you let the team know that those are very valuable traits that you value as a coach that are going to be lifetime traits that help them, not just as athletes in high school or college, but for the rest of their lives. So when I go to these weddings and I meet players that, you know, again, I coached 35 years ago or 30 years ago or 20 years ago, you know, they rarely talk about, you know, the way we taught spacing or the way we ran the outside zone play, you know, their recall or old life, leadership, teammate lessons. Um, and at this stage of my life, those things are extremely meaningful to me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:48

Coach, it's really been a pleasure to spend the last 30 minutes with you. Thank you for sharing your wisdom. And uh, it was really an honor to uh to meet and talk with you. Good.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

Well, thanks so much for having me on, and best of luck to everybody, and thanks for participating. Um, I'm honored that you invited me. Thanks so much.

SPEAKER_00 33:06

Hey, it's Matt. Over the past two seasons, we've had the privilege of learning from coaches and leaders who have built championship programs in different ways. One message keeps coming up, though the culture you want is built every day through the standards you reinforce, the conversations you have, and the example you set. I hope these conversations have challenged you, encouraged you, and given you practical ideas you can take back to your own team. And if you're looking for a community of coaches who are also committed to building cultures that last, we'd love to have you join us. Visit momentumteams.com slash sessions to join for free. Thank you so much for listening to season two. And one last request, please be sure and subscribe to this show on your favorite podcast platform. We will be back in just a couple of months with season three. We'll see you then.